Author Topic: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?  (Read 24246 times)

Sergio De Ceglie

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #45 on: Sat 27 Sep 2014, 10:47 »

Great post Paul. A fair bit of effort must have gone into that.

Additionally, if there are any other jets on the following list:

- http://www.lcacc.org/aircraft/

Please let us know your thoughts.



Looking at that list there isn't much choice as you would expect with the limitations of operating a jet out of London City.


A318 - has payload limits and increased operating costs however there is a great model available from Aerosoft.


RJ's/146's - are getting old now with increased operating costs. I believe there is a decent model available from Qualitywings though.


E190 - seems the logical choice as far as economics go. The Wilco model looks a bit dated though. The Feelthere model of the E195 looks better but I'm not sure an E195 is certified to operate out of London City.


I think Yves has a point. Probably best not to worry about operating a jet from London City for now and just stick to the props.


One final thought. My personal opinion is that for any aircraft selected there should be a quality model available just as there is for the JS41 and Dash8. That's one of the main attractions for me. I'm sure the A320 will be popular because there's a good Aerosoft model available (an improved updated version is due in October) with another one from FS Labs on the way. I worry that if an unpopular aircraft is selected then it may not be flown much.


Certainly makes for an interesting discussion.


Cheers,
Serge


Sergio De Ceglie

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #46 on: Sun 28 Sep 2014, 14:09 »
There hasn't been many thoughts added to this thread since Paul's excellent post so to put a bit of weight  behind the A318 (<- see what I did there  ;) ) I ran some numbers through PFPX using the A318 with CFM engines (I was also a bit bored today). So far when discussing the A318 out of EGLC it has been compared to the 32 seat version operated by BAW. This isn't a fair comparison as Intercity won't be operating it trans atlantic (I am aware it stops at Shannon on the way though) and won't be operating 32 business only seats. I planned a route that Intercity may use a jet on (London - Rome) and a realistic passenger count. I assume operating a Jet out of EGLC will make Intercity attractive for business customers (which is where the $'s are) so running a 2 class configuration of Y99 & J8 would seem to make sense. The results from PFPX....

EGLC - LIRA

OFP ROUTE (Validated):
-EGLC/09  N0378F230 DVR5U DVR L9 KONAN/N0441F370 UL607 KOK/N0443F390 UL607 UTABA UM738 TIRUL Y740 NATAG UM738 AMTEL UL995 GIKIN GIKI2F LIRA/33
-DIST 879-

EET: 2:09
DOW: 39500
Payload: 9523 (107 passengers - 2 class)
ZFW: 49023
Fuel: 6181 (includes reserves and alternate)
TOW: 55205 (from a performance table available on the Airbus website I believe about 56700kg is the limit for an A318 on EGLC's runway)

From this it appears the A318 can be operated out of EGLC with a realistic payload and stay within the takeoff weight limitation. If we charge enough for those business seats it may even be profitable.  :)

Cheers,
Serge

Chris Liu

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #47 on: Sun 28 Sep 2014, 21:17 »
Serge,

Does PFPX have a profile for the E-190 or E195 so we could do a comparison (I know the passenger load will be slightly less than the A318)

Sergio De Ceglie

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #48 on: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 04:39 »
Hi Chris,

PFPX has profiles for the E190AR and E195AR, both with GE CF34 engines. I have run the numbers using the same route as my previous post. I have also re-run the numbers for the A318 so that all 3 outputs have the same weather (in this case an average headwind of 3 knots) and same alternates. I derived the seat configurations from the manufacturers websites and the maximum takeoff weights from performance charts from the following sources (I assumed runway length of 1200m and ISA conditions at sea level):

A318
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/tech_data/AC/Airbus-AC_A318_May2014.pdf
E190
http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AMPS/APM_190.pdf
E195
http://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/AMPS/APM_195.pdf

The results from PFPX are as follows:

EGLC - LIRA

OFP ROUTE:
-EGLC/27  N0377F230 DVR5T DVR L9 KONAN/N0441F370 UL607 FERDI/N0442F390 UL607 UTABA UM738 TIRUL Y740 NATAG UM738 AMTEL UL995 GIKIN GIKI2F LIRA/15
-DIST 880-

A318

EET   2:10
DOW  39500
PYLD  9523 (107 passengers including baggage - Y99, J8)
ZFW  49023
FUEL  6223 (block - includes reserves and alternate, actual trip fuel 4577)
TOW  55246 (max takeoff weight for EGLC = 56700)

E190AR

EET   2:11
DOW  28207
PYLD  8544 (96 passengers including baggage - Y88, J8) 
ZFW  36751
FUEL  5536 (block - includes reserves and alternate, actual trip fuel 4144)
TOW  42287 (max takeoff weight for EGLC = 42200)

E195AR

EET   2:11
DOW  28807
PYLD  8900 (100 passengers including baggage - Y88, J12)     
ZFW  37707
FUEL  5721 (block - includes reserves and alternate, actual trip fuel 4239)
TOW  43428 (max takeoff weight for EGLC = 43100)


From this both the E-Jets are over the maximum takeoff weights for EGLC with a maximum passenger load in a 2 class config with the A318 being slightly under. The block fuel for the A318 is 700kg more than the E190 and 500kg more than the E195 however the actual fuel burn difference for the trip is less at 400kg and 250kg respectively.

I can't verify these numbers as I don't have these aircraft for FSX however I do have the Dash8 (Majestic) and B737-800 and 777-200LR (both PMDG) and when using the PFPX profiles for these aircraft the numbers are pretty good.

Cheers,
Serge
« Last Edit: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 04:45 by Sergio De Ceglie »

Chris Liu

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #49 on: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 09:46 »
From this both the E-Jets are over the maximum takeoff weights for EGLC with a maximum passenger load in a 2 class config with the A318 being slightly under.  The block fuel for the A318 is 700kg more than the E190... however the actual fuel burn difference for the trip is less at 400kg.
Thanks for that Serge, your numbers confirm what I thought; 400 kg on one sector is quite a lot, imagine you fly 3 legs like that each day and that's over 400,000 kg a year! I appreciate the A318 seats 10 more, but it also costs a lot more to buy (before discounts anyway)

I've quoted the E190 figures as I don't think there's an SR (Steep Runway) version of the E195, and the payload penalty for the latter on a Rome sector is pretty hefty, although Rome is probably one of the longest legs I'd consider from EGLC.

For the record, we have considered the following types so far (some of these got ruled out pretty quickly, but none the less we did consider them): Airbus A318, Antonov An-148/An-158, BAe Avro RJ, Boeing 717, Bombardier CRJ700/900, Bombardier Cseries, COMAC ARJ21, Embraer E-jets, Fokker 70, Mitsubishi MRJ90, Sukhoi SSJ100 and Tupolev Tu-334. If I had my way we'd have Fairey Rotodynes or Dornier 928s  ;D

My personal opinion is that... there should be a quality model available just as there is for the JS41 and Dash8... I'm sure the A320 will be popular because there's a good Aerosoft model available... with another one from FS Labs on the way. I worry that if an unpopular aircraft is selected then it may not be flown much.
And therein lies the crux of the matter; it's a tough balancing act selecting an aircraft that is realistic but also well represented in flight simulator; based on that we're left with the QW Avro RJ, feelThere/Wilco E190/195 and Aerosoft A318. Aerosoft are developing a CRJ700/900 that should be out soon but it won't make the LCY approach (and the cabin is horrid)!
 
« Last Edit: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:02 by Chris Liu »

Paul Regimbal

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #50 on: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 12:23 »
And therein lies the crux of the matter; it's a tough balancing act selecting an aircraft that is realistic but also well represented in flight simulator; based on that we're left with the QW Avro RJ, feelThere/Wilco E190/195 and Aerosoft A318. Aerosoft are developing a CRJ700/900 that should be out soon but it won't make the LCY approach (and the cabin is horrid)!


Avro RJ I thought was ruled out because it utilized 4 engines?  Which equated to extra fuel burn.

Here's a math calculation for you Chris, how much fuel would you save by consolidating some Dash 8's into A318s, and would that offset the cost of operating it on new destinations?

Of course, keep in mind it has been suggested by two members prior, that it makes equal business sense to not operating a jet out of EGLC for the time being.  Which I think adding a jet to this hub requires some careful planning as there is bound to be drawbacks no matter what we decide.

Sergio De Ceglie

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #51 on: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 13:08 »
Thanks for that Serge, your numbers confirm what I thought; 400 kg on one sector is quite a lot, imagine you fly 3 legs like that each day and that's over 400,000 kg a year! I appreciate the A318 seats 10 more, but it also costs a lot more to buy (before discounts anyway).

Yeah, that fuel difference will add up. Will the extra seats though (I will assume around 13 or so as the E190 is at max takeoff weight with a full load so will need to shed some payload) offset that? Throw in the savings from commonality with the A320, training, maintenance, etc and that will help a bit. Also, how good are your negotiating skills? If you're purchasing A320's, surely you can get Airbus to sweeten the deal a bit with some A318's at a good price.  ;D

And therein lies the crux of the matter; it's a tough balancing act selecting an aircraft that is realistic but also well represented in flight simulator; based on that we're left with the QW Avro RJ, feelThere/Wilco E190/195 and Aerosoft A318.

These are the same three I mentioned back at the top of the page. I guess that's why I'm pushing the A318 as IMHO it's the pick of the bunch as far as flight simulator is concerned.

Another thought. Are you doing the calc's based on purchasing the aircraft or leasing them? If you haven't considered leasing perhaps this may be a short term avenue to look at. Maybe lease some A318's for a year to see how they work out.

Cheers,
Serge

Chris Liu

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #52 on: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 14:06 »
I guess that's why I'm pushing the A318 as IMHO it's the pick of the bunch as far as flight simulator is concerned. Are you doing the calc's based on purchasing the aircraft or leasing them?
In reality there are no A318s available to lease, so they'd have to be new build aircraft and then the lease is expensive because the resale value of the A318 (and number of potential lessees) is small. A similar problem afflicts the A340-500.

My concern with the A318 in FSX is that it could be a fad, I'm not sure it will have lasting appeal like the J41 and Q400; whereas they are unique, the A318 is just another narrowbody Airbus and I think many people currently flying the Aerosoft A318 on VATSIM will back in the A319 and A320 in a few months, once the novelty has worn off; I've seen it happen before with PMDG's 737-600 NGX.
« Last Edit: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 15:37 by Chris Liu »

Sergio De Ceglie

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Re: Adding New Types To The Fleet (E.g. Aerosoft Airbus X)?
« Reply #53 on: Mon 29 Sep 2014, 16:17 »
My concern with the A318 in FSX is that it could be a fad, I'm not sure it will have the lasting appeal of the J41 and Q400. I think many people currently flying the Aerosoft A318 on VATSIM will back in the A319 and A320 within a few months; I've seen it happen before with PMDG's 737-600 NGX.

Fair concern Chris and I agree that the A318 is probably going through a popularity phase at the moment as it's a new release. I'm sure it will drop off even further once Aerosoft release the updated A320/321 in October and FS Labs finally release their A320. Unfortunately it also appears most of the small jets just aren't popular on Vatsim. Having a look what is currently online now and there are 13 A318, 1 B736, 1 RJ, 5 E170/5, 0 E190/5 and 1 CRJ. As a comparison there are 69 B738 and 29 A320 online.

Now considering that the current Intercity statistics show about 37% of flights are flown online with the majority being flown offline and I'm not sure the popularity of an aircraft type on Vatsim is critical (although I guess it can be used as a gauge). For reference looking at the props and there is 1 JS41 and 5 DH8D online. That doesn't reflect the popularity of these aircraft at Intercity although strangely enough the ratio nearly matches the Intercity statistics (20% JS41 and 80% Dash8 flights flown by aircraft type).

I guess what we can take from all this discussion is that no matter which jet is selected to operate out of EGLC it's going to be a challenge both economically and popularity wise to make it work.

Cheers,
Serge